Extended Interview - Thotscholar

LAUREN KILEY: Hello On The Dresser Listeners! Here is the complete interview with thotscholar from our episode: A Day To End Violence Against Sex Workers in which we discuss her new book, Libra Season, December 17, and pro-heaux womanism. Enjoy!

[chill music]

LAUREN: Hello and welcome to On The Dresser! We are so, so excited to have suprihmbé, who you might also recognize by their Twitter handle, @thotscholar. Past listeners have definitely heard us cite your work, specifically on our Velvet Collar episode that highlighted queer and sex worker writing. And we are so so excited to have you on the show today! Thank you so much for being with us!

SUPRIHMBÉ: I'm excited. I'm always nervous to do recorded stuff or whatever, interviews, but I'm here.

LAUREN: [chuckles] Well, we really appreciate it! When we started asking people what they were doing this year for December 17th, we were very thrilled to hear that you are releasing a book of queer fantasy poetry?!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes. That just kind of happened because I'm not really good at working on one project at a time.

LAUREN: Yeah, 'cause you have another book coming out too, right?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, I have one that's supposed to come out in the spring. And that's like my main project, and that's what I've been campaigning for. But then I was writing this poetry because I went through a couple of breakups this year and a lot of different stuff, self-discovery stuff. So, I wrote some poetry, and I was gonna put it in my main book: Heaux Thots Compendium. But, I decide my, well I'm saying I decided, but my editor decided that it would be better to take the poetry out and to stop trying to put everything in one book. So, yeah.

LAUREN: That seems to make sense. What is this...? Does it have a title yet? Do you know how we can get our hands on it?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes. It's called Libra Season.

LAUREN: I love that.

SUPRIHMBÉ: I'm not gonna completely disclose why 'cause it's related to a few people I've dated. But I love Libras. Let that be said.

LAUREN: Thank you. I am a Libra… so...

SUPRIHMBÉ: Most of my favorite people in real life are Libras. We get along super well most of the time. But it's really hard when you get on a Libra's bad side. They're really mean. So!

LAUREN: [laughs]

SUPRIHMBÉ: The poetry book though, it's not out yet. It will be out December 17th. Right now, I'm running a GoFundMe for it. It's gofundme.com/libraseasonwinterfund

LAUREN: So, my next question is why queer fantasy poetry on December 17th?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Some of it is about, is related to sex work, and I'm a sex worker. December 17th is one of our holidays.

LAUREN: Definitely the saddest one.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah. And I wanted to do something a little more I don't wanna stay upbeat because it's not upbeat. But it seems like it is because it's fantasy, and it kind of takes you on a little journey. And I just love fantasy, and it just ended up that way. I wrote one poem called A Date & a Dragon when I was really like in the thick of grieving over losing this person that I recently lost. And I was really sad, so I wrote that off the top of my head. And then I just kept writing after that. I don't know where the dragon thing came from, but I like fantasy, so.

LAUREN: I also love fantasy. And as a reader, I was super excited because December 17th is traditionally very heavy and hard to get through. And I can't think of anything that would make me as a sex worker feel better than queer fantasy poetry, so.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah. I hope people like it, and I hope people read it. [laughs]

LAUREN: And how does this fit into…? I was going to ask how it was fitting in to your larger body of work? How does poetry fit in, for you, for also your theory, your scholarship, the personal sharing you do with your writing?

SUPRIHMBÉ: I started out writing poetry when I was very young. And I stopped for a really long time because my mom is one of those parents that invades your privacy and reads your journals and stuff

LAUREN: Ah, I had a stepdad like that!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, so after she did that I stopped writing poetry for a really long time and I only picked it back up a couple years ago. Then I kinda stopped again. So I guess for me prose and poetry aren’t that far from each other. I like the kind of poetry that kind of tells a story. I feel like that’s what poems and verse were originally used for, to tell stories. I wanted to tell my story a little bit, and that’s… I guess that’s what I wrote it for.

LAUREN: So, a lot of your writing has been very personal and bringing narrative not just from your own life but from specific narratives of sex workers. How has that been playing to audiences? Like do you have different kinds of interactions with your readers across platforms or across genres, like your essays compared to your poetry?

SUPRIHMBÉ: I feel like— You know, 'cause I just got started back into poetry, and you know, like some people they are like titled poets, you know?

LAUREN: Mmhmm.

SUPRIHMBÉ: I'm not, so I don't think a lot of people are paying too much attention to it, but. Because my platform, I'm mainly on Twitter, and my platform is really heavily political and personal at the same time. But it's all really related to sex work, even my parenting things, because it affects my life so much.

LAUREN: And so, have you ever participated in December 17th, like in a collective or personal way before?

SUPRIHMBÉ: I usually just participate online with the rest of the community. But this year I wanted to do the book. I originally wanted to drop Heaux Thots Compendium, but sometimes projects like that, they just need a little more work. And I didn't wanna put it out, rush and put it out and it be bad. So, yeah, normally I just make threads on Twitter and try to do little things for myself, try to remember people we've lost, all of that.

LAUREN: Mmhmm. So, what has the experience of December 17th been like through online community and Twitter threads? Like have you felt supported?

SUPRIHMBÉ: I mean I feel supported by others sex workers.

BOTH: [chuckle]

LAUREN: That's good.

SUPRIHMBÉ: But the larger, wider community, there's certain Black women and women of color who are very supportive. I've experienced a lot of harassment, a lot of anger harassment from cisgender Black women, so I don't really, their support is kind of like, when they're not sex workers, it's just kind of uhh. But yeah, I feel supported by the people who are close to me in that community online. It's just kind of a sad day in general, especially when you think of like on that day, we see a lot about Black trans women being murdered, queer people who engage in sex work being murdered, you know what I'm saying. We see a lot of that, and it's just kind of a day of remembrance.

LAUREN: Yeah, and it’s coming right off the heels of Trans Day of Remembrance and there’s a lot of crossover on those lists.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah.

LAUREN: So… on to more inspiring… resistance… happier questions… can you tell us about Heaux Stroll?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Oh! Ok! So!

LAUREN: Sorry! I know that’s completely switching topics! I was just really excited to ask about it!

SUPRIHMBÉ: We’re planning Heaux Stroll for June 2nd, which is another sex worker holiday.

LAUREN: Mmmhmmm. International Whores Day… right?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes. There’s one in March too. I always mix up the March and June

LAUREN: I think March is International Sex Workers Rights Day?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, March 3rd.

LAUREN: Yeah. That’s a thin distinction, but I’m glad we have two sort of happy holidays through the year after we do the vigil. Then we get to have more, you know, come together in a bit more celebratory style I suppose. So. June 2nd, 2019, in Chicago, right?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes!

LAUREN: Excellent! And what is that event going to look like? What are you aiming for?

SUPRIHMBÉ: If the weather is right, which hopefully it will be, since, sad moment, we’re going through a nationwide drought. So hopefully it won’t rain that day and we will be walking outside, walking a predetermined trail and then stopping to hear a speaker, or hopefully performer. That’s pretty much it. Just something small to get us started. And hopefully we’ll be able to do more the year after.

LAUREN And how did this one come about? What’s the back story on it?

SUPRIHMBÉ: One of my friends and mutuals, Zalika [@ZalUIbaorimi], she did a thread. And I had been thinking about SlutWalk for a long time and racialization of these movements and these words. And how I didn’t really feel like… unless I went to an event I couldn’t really do something like that in my neighborhood because I live in a Black neighborhood in the south side of Chicago. And I wanted to do something that was more Black sex worker friendly. We have to do it a lot different than SlutWalk because of where it is also. Like, we can’t just be out butt naked. Because we might get hurt.

LAUREN: Yeah

SUPRIHMBÉ: And we’re keeping a police presence out of it and everything like that so there are a lot of things that we have to think about in our neighborhoods that we don’t have to think about… that they maybe don’t have to think about as much when they’re doing SlutWalk. So.

LAUREN: Yeah, I remember… I was weirdly at the first SlutWalk way back in… oh god… 2011. And it was… very very different. This was pre-Amber Rose coming in. But it was very very white. And even there I was there through, this was back when I was with SWOP-LA and we had a table there. And it was a very weird experience to have SlutWalk be sex worker friendly in name in the sense that they had SWOP there, and we were giving out water and pamphlets [EDITOR’S NOTE: THEY ALSO HAD A SEX WORKER SPEAKER - LK]. But not sex worker friendly with the reactions. Even from other sex workers who were confused why we were there. So I’m hoping… from there to Amber Rose to Heaux Stroll… there’s at least a forward trajectory.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah

LAUREN: In your scholarship and your writing, you talk about proheaux womanism. How are those theories being connected to the sort of realities of organizing an event? You’ve already mentioned location and police presence. Are there any other sort of connecting theory to praxis connections?

SUPRIHMBÉ: I think of things that we do, especially things like Heaux Stroll or writing books or helping other sex workers that we know in real life or online. I think of all of that as sort of an expression of what I call proheaux womanism. Basically, all proheaux womanism for me is a womanism that centers sex workers. I haven't seen a lot of womanist work that centers sex workers or is pro—not necessarily pro sex work—but is I guess what some people will call sex radical. Basically like not anti-prostitution, not anti-porn, but not necessarily pro-sex work as far as like the empowerment thing that it kind of implies.

LAUREN: Mmhmm. Yeah.

SUPRIHMBÉ: I just finished an article that I was mentioned in, and there was another sex worker who was actually approached by the people who wrote the article, and I'm sure was it was nonblack sex worker because what she said was that like Ashley Judd had made some anti-prostitution comments and whatever, and she's not really well-versed on our politics. Which you could tell by how she was talking. But one thing that stood out to me in this response was that they said you know, well, it only leaves room or gives room for the narratives of victims of trafficking or victims of poverty but doesn't leave enough room for people like I guess "regular people." They didn't say regular people, but I'm saying that 'cause that's what I feel like it means. It doesn't leave room for sex workers who love their job but sometimes it's hard. And I think that's kind of, that's exactly like the kind of sentiment that I kind of wanna get away from with proheaux womanism. Because the idea that.... I think it's the phrasing that really bothers me because there isn't a lot of room given for victims of poverty.

LAUREN: Yeah. I'm sorry. If I understood what you just said, someone was making the argument that sex workers who are relatively content and not struggling financially are under-represented?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes.

LAUREN: [chortles]

SUPRIHMBÉ: I'll read the actual quote to you because I feel like I kind of messed it up. But this was her response to Ashley Judd. She said that her name is @BrookeBrou. That's her handle. She said that, "Sex work is undeniably a complex structure much like any job in history." And then she said that, "Ashley Judd's position only allows for people who are victims of trafficking or were victims of poverty to share stories of assault. It doesn't allow for sex workers to say they still love doing sex work but sometimes a job can be tough or complicated, but most of the time it's great." And I agree with most of what she said. But...

LAUREN: It's not wrong.

SUPRIHMBÉ: ...there's not room on either side are victims of poverty to share their stories.

LAUREN: Yeah. [sighs] I feel like I've heard variations of that argument for way too long, and I think there's probably a past version of myself that made that argument. And it's especially, I mean compared to Ashley Judd supposed or alleged anti-trafficking work, you're right in that it doesn't leave room, but it also automatically centers the people who don't need the centering and are in the least need of the resources.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Right. And it's hard to catch that if you're not really in that position or have never been. It's really hard to like catch that in the language because it almost looks like she's just correcting her, which she probably thinks she's doing. But the reality is that like the reason that the anti-sex work and anti-porn coalitions or whatever are able to grab these people who are victims of trafficking or victims of poverty, the reason they're able to kinda grab them is the same reason that some religions and cults are able to grab certain people: because they're vulnerable. And the fact of the matter is, is that there's no room for victims of trafficking or poverty to share stories of assault anywhere without it being skewed to, without them being silenced, because it's not empowering, or it being skewed to serve anti-porn and anti-sex work agendas. Like there's no room on either side. So, for people to say, "Well, there's no room for people who love doing sex work," there's definitely room for those people because feminism is where they're at.

LAUREN: [laughs] Yeah. It is. There's plenty of room, and we're having brunches.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, so that's my thing with proheaux womanism and why I felt like it was necessary, even if some people may feel like it's not. You know, people have opinions. But that sentiment is one of the reasons why I was like, there's a lot of discourse and there's a lot of people who are being erased.

LAUREN: Well, you're also asking people to re-center off of themselves, and that's largely an uncomfortable process.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Right.

LAUREN But… eh. *mumbles* That also means recentering off their fucking comfort. Ah, so! Do you have recommended reading for activists and organizers?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes I do!

LAUREN: We would love all of it!

SUPRIHMBÉ: I have like 400 books in my house!

LAUREN: *laughs delightedly*

SUPRIHMBÉ: Actually, it’s probably more of that if you count the comics, but yeah. So the books that I have next to me right now are… well first I would tell people to go read my stuff on Twitter.

LAUREN: Yes!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Because I talk about this stuff all the time. And you can search my handle “thotscholar” and sex worker and any number of topics and everything will come up. There are other people on Twitter as well @uppitynegress is one of them. @LoreleiLee I’m sure a lot of people already follow her because she’s more visible. She was in porn. There’s a lot more people. There’s a lot of sex workers that I know but they don’t talk about this because it’s really hard to like, to mix those two platforms. Like I had to change my entire platform and stop promoting my ManyVids and my work and all of that.

LAUREN: Yeah. That’s been a constant compromise.

SUPRIHMBÉ: So I guess for my recommended reading besides Twitter would be $pread: The best of the magazine that illuminated the sex industry and started a media revolution is the tagline.

LAUREN: Yes!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah! This is the anthology. I loved it! I have it tabbed and I read it all the time! The other books I would suggest are: I’ve Got To Make My Livin: Black Women’s Sex Work in Turn of the Century Chicago by Cynthia Blair.

The Feminist Porn Book that was edited by Tristan Taormino, Constance Penley, Celine Parrenas Shimizu, and Mireille Miller-Young.

Mireille Miller-Young wrote A Taste of Brown Sugar which is also a good resource.

No Tea, No Shade: New Writings in Black queer studies. It’s edited by E. Patrick Johnson. It will be a nice introduction to Black queer studies. But there was an anthology before this that was edited by the same person so this is basically a second edition update with new voices.

LAUREN: Oh, cool!

SUPRIHMBÉ: I would look for both of them. The first one is just called Black Queer Studies.

The Black Body in Ecstasy by Jennifer Nash. It’s about porn, race, and porn.

The Color of Kink by Ariane Cruz is about Black women, BDSM, and pornography.

And ’Mutha is Half A Word by L.H. Stallings is another resource that I have.

And The Ultimate Guide to Kink by Tristan Taormino.

LAUREN: Nice! That is a fantastic collection and…

SUPRIHMBÉ: Wait! One more!

LAUREN: Yes, please!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Excluded by Julia Serano.

LAUREN: Yes! We had her on our show back when we were on the radio and it was so much fun!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Whipping Girl was like, I had already known the basic of trans politics but Julia Serano and Janet Mock. Their work has given me a really firm education on trans politics, particularly when it comes to trans women. But Julia Serano also talks about bisexuality and sexuality and gender in general in a way that was really enlightening to me.

LAUREN: Mmmhmm. Same.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Her work… I cannot ever recommend it enough.

LAUREN: One of the things that we’ve seen coming up in talking to people about sex work activism and organizing in general is looking towards past movements and past structures of events and group organizing to the details of running meetings. Is there anything, any specific movements or moments historically that you find yourself looking to?

SUPRIHMBÉ: I know I’m trying to learn more about Stonewall. I look to, maybe not movements necessarily, but Marcia P. Johnson definitely. I’m learning more about her. Reina Gossett is a current person that I’m looking at and admiring. She also is a black trans woman. I think she’s going by Tourmaline now. Like the jewel. I guess I look to certain people. It’s really hard because a lot of the scholarship like I said is anti-prostitution even while it gives me like such great values. Like Patricia Hill Collins and bell hooks and all of them. I still read their work. It was phenomenal. It’s a heavy influence but they were anti-porn or anti-prostitution so… it’s hard for me to look to movements in general.

LAUREN: Yeah, what we find is a lot of oh, well we really admire this about this movement or this particular group and it’s a group that would never have let us in in the first place.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Right.

LAUREN: Is there anything that you would like to see in the next five years? If the sort of loose “sex work community” or “sex work activist community” and that’s sort of in quotes because I think there’s a lot of small communities and not actually one collective… but if people were going to get their shit together over the next five years… what would that look like to you?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Not voting for Kamala Harris.

BOTH: *laughter*

SUPRIHMBÉ: But also, I don’t think… it’s really hard because I don’t know if we can look. Well, I don’t think we can look to politicians for any kind of help. But at the same time we need some of these laws to change because they are enforced by basically a militarized police law enforcement system.

LAUREN: Mmmhmm.

SUPRIHMBÉ: I think we do need decriminalization to happen. I’ve had a lot of arguments about decrim.

LAUREN: Yep!

SUPRIHMBÉ: Like I said before, I feel like it’s not enough. There needs to be a lot of work done around that. And there need to be other laws put in place that are actually helpful if we’re gonna go the law route.

LAUREN What other routes would you be interested in watching other people explore? Because you’re right! Policy is not enough!

SUPRIHMBÉ: I mean, I want there to be underground brothels and fuck these police and all this other stuff. I’m really a firm advocate for legal, or just underground, brothels. I don’t think that brothels should be illegal anywhere. But I do think that there need to be, again, things in place. I don’t see that happening in the next five years because even with brothels there were a lot of chances for exploitation. And not just by men!  

LAUREN: Yeah. So, collective economic organizing… *trails off*

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah. I am in favor of brothel co-ops. Where there’s a group of people, 5 or maybe 10 people max, that share, like a grocery store, you go in on a building or an apartment that has multiple rooms and you can work out of there. And I know people who are doing things like that. And they’re mostly wealthier sex workers. And they’re mostly white.

LAUREN: I was going to say, that seems like a thing I’ve mostly seen in white cam girl culture.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, and escorts as well. They rent out these spaces to each other and they have the resources to do that. Whereas a lot of us, a lot of people of color, women of color in particular, do not have those kinds of resources even if they have the community. But I feel like in the next five years those are things that are possible. Underground things. On the ground organizing. And getting more in touch with people who are in our city and in our area.

LAUREN: What would make it easier and more appealing? What are the resources for on the ground organizing that you think would be really helpful for the sex working communities that you’re a part of?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Well, for one I think *sighs* If we’re talking solidarity, that’s a really hard thing. Especially with white sex workers to be honest. There’s a lot of class divides already. And then because we live in a country where class and race heavily intersect, we associate poverty with black people. And because of that it makes it really hard to have solidarity even within just the Black sex worker community. Because there’s so much class divides and other divides in there. So I think part of the thing we need to work on is making things more inclusive. That’s what I want to try to do with pro-heaux womanism or publishing other peoples’ voices which is what I want to do with my indie imprint. Because it is really hard. Solidarity. I think solidarity between Black and brown people is very very possible because we have similar struggles. And I think that poor or working class or lower class white women should definitely jump ship and come over.

LAUREN: We’re trying. Some of us are.

SUPRIHMBÉ: And you know, there’s a lot involved with that too. Like ridding yourselves and ourselves of anti-blackness and xenophobia when it comes to certain ethnic groups and all of that. As far as middle class and wealthier white women, I just don’t see it happening any time soon because they’re just too far removed from the struggle.

LAUREN: *laughter*

SUPRIHMBÉ: And I’ve seen this because I frequent both Baby Center and What to Expect so I’m kind of a crunchy mom and I frequent those forums and those boards. And middle class and wealthy white women are really fucked up towards poor white women.

LAUREN: Yup!

SUPRIHMBÉ: So there’s some in-group stuff happening there too!

LAUREN: Uh, yes. Very much. I guess same question, but on a more practical scale. What kind of… *sighs* One of the things we’ve sort of been going over are the little [EDITORS NOTE: I meant to say specific instead of little! These are not little things! I apologize for misspeaking! - LK] things, like having bottled water available, having a location that is physically accessible, having childcare available, having childcare that someone would actually want to bring their child to…. That’s a thing. Is there any concrete thing people could do to make your life as an organizer just a little bit better?

SUPRIHMBÉ: Childcare, like you mentioned, is a really big thing! This is something that’s not even unique to sex work organizing. I feel like this is a Western or very American thing. People hate children. There’s usually no accommodations for kids. It’s not kid friendly. They don’t think to interview people that are actually nannies and put money aside in their budgets. Nonprofits even don’t think all the time to put money aside in their budgets for real child care. For an actual room where children can go. People don’t think about that because that’s one extra thing you have to think about. Virginia Despentes. She wrote King Kong Theory and Baise-moi. She was talking about how it’s one of the great failures of feminism that childcare is not like a main thing. Universal childcare should have been at the top of the list.

LAUREN: MmmHmmm

SUPRIHMBÉ: And that’s a thing that like, why is this not focused on? And I think it’s because it’s a class thing. People who have money for childcare don’t really like… they think about childcare but they don’t have to think about it as much as like people like me who can’t afford childcare on a regular basis. And it’s usually poor women who can’t really afford it. Like I said, people don’t like kids so even beyond poverty and class there’s that. People don’t like kids and they don’t like to think about accommodating them.

LAUREN: Well, and they certainly don’t like to think of sex workers having children or being around children or children anywhere near any event that has anything to do with sex work

SUPRIHMBÉ: I’ve had people who are strangers and I’ve had people who are family members, my son’s dad, threaten me with CPS [Child Protective Services] or threaten me with slurs or...

LAUREN: *heavy sigh*

SUPRIHMBÉ: All kinds of things. Also I think more resources as far as legal in concerned. A lot of sex workers do not have access to lawyers or legal resources.

LAUREN: Mmmhmm. Yup.

SUPRIHMBÉ: And we go to court! When I went to court to get my restraining order against my ex he brought up the fact that I’m a cam girl and brought up the fact that I slept with someone he knew when we weren’t together. He tried to make it like “she’s an unfit parent, she’s a whore, she’s this and she’s that…” And men do that often with sex workers in the court room.

LAUREN: Being outted as a sex worker in a courtroom is damaging, and it’s damaging in all sorts of cases. It’s in custody. It’s in divorce. It’s even in rape cases. So we’ll put that on the policy list of somehow changing… also access to lawyers who aren’t just criminal lawyers.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Right.

LAUREN: I think that’s about all I have! Thank you! What is the best way for people to find you and support you?

SUPRIHMBÉ: You can find me on Twitter all the time @thotscholar. And then I have a patreon. It's Patreon.com/thotscholar, and I put a lot of my writing there these days. That's paying me rent, and I really need that, so. [laughs] My work is great!

LAUREN: Agreed! You should get paid! Rent should not be such a stressful thing for seemingly everyone when you’re poor

SUPRIHMBÉ: I think all of our harassers and bullies online forget that we have bills every month 'cause every time a sex worker posts a cash link, somebody has a problem with it.

LAUREN: Empowered sex workers are able to pay all their bills, on time even! Or so I’ve been told.

SUPRIHMBÉ: So we’ve been told!

LAUREN: Thank you again so much for being on the show. And we would love to have you back at some point. Good luck with the book, and good luck with everything.

SUPRIHMBÉ: Thank you.

[chill music]

LAUREN: Thank you so much for listening! For more information and transcripts check out our website - onthedresserpodcast.com. And please keep in touch with us on Twitter @OnTheDresser or email us thoughts, feelings, or other feedback onthedresser@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you! You can find more episodes and interviews from On the Dresser on iTunes, Soundcloud, Stitcher, and Google Play! And while you are there please subscribe and rate our podcast - it really helps us out.

Our production team is myself, Lauren Kiley, Dr. Vanessa Carlisle, and Danny Cruz. All our music is produced by Lou Gomez.

It’s not as much fun doing the sign off alone but it is tradition so… all power to the people, all pleasure to the people, good night, and good fuck!